by Rob Turner

Here is part one of an interview that Jambands.com staff writer Rob Turner conducted with Hot Tuna guitarist Jorma Kaukonen. It focuses on his performances over the past year, both as a solo artist, and as a member of Hot Tuna. Then it goes on to talk about some of the musicians he joined on stage in 99 including the Allman Brothers Band, Trey Anastasio, and Phil Lesh. It also touches on his Fur Peace Ranch Guitar Camp- http://www.furpeaceranch.com.

RST - Are you enjoying yourself on this solo tour?

Jorma - Yes I AM! (with a strum of his guitar emphasizing AM)

RST - There's been a lot of talk about this being a rare occurrence. Exactly how rare is it to see you performing alone these days, and why?

Jorma - Well, just to really do a solo thing...I think it's been a year since I did it. I don't do it very often. I am gonna do it more. I actually have been having a really great time. I've been playing for years and shit...it's not like it's a "new day"...and sometimes you just you just don't do things for a while...and I think the favorite thing I like to do now, musically, is to play with the trio, 'cuz I like the textures and all of the stuff that Pete (keyboardist Pete Sears), Michael (rhythm guitarist/mandolinist/vocalist Michael Falzarano), and I do together. I've really been havin' a good time.

RST - Could you talk about how your approach varies musically in these different settings?

Jorma - Sure.... Well, of course, when I'm playing' with a keyboard player...when you do the guitar/keyboard thing, the keyboards take up so much space, then you really....I don't wanna use the term "get lazy"...but...you don't have to do as much cohesive picking. You know, you can do more fills and parts and stuff like that. But when you're playing solo, you gotta play all the time. I've done it for years, but I don't do it that often. So, the first night down in Athens...I was thinking' "Wow this is..." (shakes head), it almost feels empty in some ways, you know? But I was also thinking "this is really cool," because I also do things when I'm playing solo that I can't do when I'm playing with other guys because it clutters stuff up. For example up at the guitar camp (Jorma's Fur Peace Ranch) we get like ten finger pickers together. They can all be real good, but when they're all playing it's like a barrage of notes, and you have to say "slow down guys we gotta figure out what to do." When you're playing with yourself you can give the barrage of notes and THEN it's cool...does that make sense?

RST - Yes, definitely...and then when you throw Jack (bassist for Jefferson Airplane, Hot Tuna, and many other bands) into the equation...

Jorma - Right, Ok and that's another thing too. Jack and I have started to, in addition to doing the Hot Tuna band thing, we occasionally do duo things, just the bass and the guitar, which we're doing up at the camp, I think, toward the end of this month. Jack and I have this thing, that's a totally different thing too, you know, we have this thing where we... of course we've been playing together since "rocks and water" you know...

RST - ...since The Triumphs...

Jorma - (a deep, reflective sigh) Wow! But that's a bit of a different thing too, and once again I don't do as much constant finger picking because it's not necessary, 'cuz I got him doing the "Jack thing." So, it's just different. It's like stripping layers from the onion, not that one layer is better than the other, but they're different layers.

RST - Well, how about using "Embryonic Journey" as an example?

Jorma - Well, Ok Embryonic Journey, you know I do it a little bit differently every time, but it's an arrangement song for me. It's the same length, pretty much, unless I screw up and have to "pull the fat out of the fire" by making look like I'm taking off somewhere. If I were to play Embryonic Journey with Jack I would probably not do some of the off-beat timing things, like some of the descending runs that I would do solo, because I can't be sure that he would do it at the same time and then it would sound like we were making mistakes. I think both of us clean our playing up a little bit when we play together. Now if we're doing something like Mann's Fate, in the solo parts, I do what I'm doing then Jack goes bonkers, then it doesn't matter what I'm doing 'cuz Jack is going bonkers. But, hopefully at the end of the "bonkers session" we will come back to the same part...

RST - ...at the same moment...

Jorma - Hopefully, yeah. And it happens more often than not.

RST - Someone was yelling for Come Back Baby in Atlanta, and you were joking about how you would need Jack to drown out the...ah...

Jorma - Subtle guitar parts, right. Actually in a sense that's true. Now it's not a value oriented statement, but I wouldn't do as many like, little ornaments and stuff like that when I'm playing with Jack because you just wouldn't hear him. It's just different, you know. It's not really simple, we just try to pull things back to the nucleus that hopefully we're orbiting around, as opposed to me noodling. I mean a lot of times I'll be doing a solo guitar thing and I might not even keep the thumb going I'll just play a couple of lead licks and stuff like that. And, it doesn't matter that I dropped the bass parts out because somehow the audience's elastic consciousness fills in the spaces, ya' know. But, when you're playing with other people I think in some respects, if you're not thinking about it, there has to be an intuitive thing so you don't step on each other's toes. That's one of the nice things about me and Jack is we tend not to step on each other's toes.

RST - I was just reviewing what you did last year. You had a great year last year.

Jorma - We did have a great year last year.

RST - Could we walk through some of the highlights?

Jorma - go right ahead

RST - Starting in January, you performed at The Bottom Line with Merle Saunders. Can you talk about these shows and your relationship with Merle?

Jorma - Well, Merle and I have known each other peripherally for years. But I really loved that. That was a fun evening. I had never heard Merle play solo before. I keep forgetting what a resume of expertise Merle has and what he does. I've heard him doing his B-3 thing, and playing with bands and stuff, but to hear him play piano solo! And that kid playing horn was unbelievable! That was really a treat, and we got to do some stuff together, it was really fun, 'cuz I've never seen Merle like that before.

RST - And then in April you were in Vermont and you played with Trey Anastasio.

Jorma - Oh right, at Higher Ground. That was fun. Trey is married to a friend of mine's sister.... it's a small world....I had no idea. We're up there playing the show, he says he's gonna come by and I said "great!" He's a real sweet guy, and we said "you wanna sit in and play a song, what do you wanna play?" I think he wanted to....I think we did Genesis and ah...

RST - AK-47

Jorma - Yeah, AK-47, and I think we might've done another, maybe we just did two...

RST - Rider I think? (Note - referring to the traditionalI Know You Rider)

Jorma - Yeah, yeah we did Rider, it was really neat.

RST - Are you familiar with his career with his band?

Jorma - No, you know something, I'm really not, 'cuz I pretty much only listen to blues and country music. But I know that they're huge. I know that they're absolutely huge, and he's a great guitar player. I was (watching him play) and thinking, "oh, that's great." Not everybody that's huge is great, but he is great.

RST - So, he just came down on his own.

Jorma - His brother-in-law is one of the honchos with the club, and he pretty much just came down on his own. We got to talking', nice guy, we got along.... And, let's play.'

RST - And then later in April, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it was your first trip to the Merlefest.

Jorma - My first, and I'm goin' again this year.

RST - Yeah, six sets, right?!

Jorma - Yes.

RST - What was your experience there? You played with Rowan (former Bluegrass boy, legendary performer Peter Rowan), with Bookbinder (one of the granddaddy's of finger style blues guitar, Roy Bookbinder)....

Jorma - ...you know, we got onto Merlefest because of Roy's inter-session on our behalf. Over the years my...ah...very colored rock and roll background has sometimes hampered me with the more authentic festivals, you know. Although, John Hartford was just at our camp doing a show recently, and we were talking about rock 'n roll. He says my rock 'n roll will be old timey music before long. I said, "you're right, that's true." And then I'll get to go to all the festivals, you know, because he's playing all that old timey stuff. But anyway, when Roy heard the "Too Many Years" album. Roy and I have been friends for a many years, and he's always been kind of critical of my work. It's not this. It's not that, you know. He listened to that all the way through, and I was like, man Roy listened to the whole CD! What's up with this?!? He says, "you finally sound like you always wanted to." And I was like, "wow, I can't believe this!" And I really like the CD too. So, I tended to agree with him. Well, Roy has something to do with the booking of the blues stage. I don't know what it is, whether he's a "booker emeritus" or if he actually has a job, but he got us on the show. I was absolutely thrilled. I'm from the DC area. I grew up listening to bluegrass music. I love it; I was just in heaven. It was a pleasure to play with these guys, you know. Roy, and I got to do some stuff with Sam Bush. I mean, I got to play with Jerry Douglas for God's sake!

RST - He's incredible! He gets some sounds out of that dobro that are unimaginable.

Jorma - I know!

(Both laugh)

RST - Then in June you were on the Conan O'Brien show. Do you know Jimmy Vivino, is that how that happened?

Jorma - Jimmy is a friend of Michael's. It was the first time I had met him but what a sweet guy he is - excellent guitar player. That was funny too, they have their rehearsal, you know, and Jimmy and guys in the band, their little green room thing says "the cats" on it. And they really are the cats by the way, these guys can really, really play. I got in there and they said, "what do you wanna play?" I said, "I don't know what do you want to play?" He mentioned a couple of things, he said "do you remember 'Come Back Baby I Wish You Would,'" and I said, "kind of, I know two riffs" and he said "that's all you need, you'll be fine, if you forget something just pretend you're B.B. King and sing and don't worry about it." So, we did some stuff that I kind of knew, but they all knew it perfectly because that's how the band is. It was great. I relearned a couple of songs playing on that Conan show with Jimmy and the boys.

RST - Somebody To Love, (classic Grace Slick sung Jefferson Airplane tune) when was the last time you played on that?

Jorma - with Jimmy

RST - Well, before that.

Jorma - Oh, who knows? Probably on the Furthur Festival or something like that, but, years ago.

RST - I noticed you even played White Rabbit at The Bottom Line (another Slick sung Airplane song, I believe Jorma had not performed since 1989, excepting Furthur Festivals).

Jorma - Not only did we play it, we had a singalong with it.

RST - with the crowd singing?

Jorma - Yeah, Michael led a singalong of White Rabbit. (Laughs) Where do you get all of this stuff?

RST - I just follow you, I'm a big fan...then the Allman Brothers in the summer, that must have been fun.

Jorma - Absolutely! I live in Southeastern Ohio and we're NASCAR fans up there you know, so it was the "NASCAR Rocks America" show, and I love the Allman Brothers. My only regret was that we only got to do five shows with them. It was really great playing with the guys. They really play loud, I gotta say. We got to jam with them a couple of times; we got on stage with the stack of big amps with lots of speakers. I haven't done that in a while. I was like "whoa?!" And I got to know Derek Trucks who I really like, and we've done some work with Derek.

RST - He really listens doesn't he?

Jorma - Whew, even when he's got his earplugs in! Yeah, he's the best, just a really sweet guy, great player, great attitude.

RST - So, I haven't heard tapes or anything, did you get to take some solos with them or did you...

Jorma - Well, I mean...Dickey picks the jam songs, and I don't remember the names, I think we did one One Way Out and ah, just some stuff like that. Oh yeah, everybody gets a solo. You know, Dickey looks at ya' and by God you better be ready to solo.

RST - And then of course, in the summer, and then again in the fall with Phil Lesh.

Jorma - Yeah, I mean you're right I really had a great year last year. The band that we did at the Warfield in June was Phil, myself, Prairie Prince, Steve Kimock, Zoe Ellis and Caitlin Cornwell (the two singers), and Pete Sears. I don't sing harmony and I'm not used to working with people that do. But after having them do I Am The Light Of This World and some other things, I was like, man I wish I could afford to have these gals with me all the time. This is "the berries," you know! I had a great time and then Phil called me to do the last couple of shows of the Dylan tour, which was fantastic. I'm treasuring my Bob Dylan backstage pass, and Bob actually remembered me.

RST - I was gonna ask if you had played with him before.

Jorma - Maybe over the years, I don't remember. We met at Gerdes' Folk City in 1960. I'm sure he doesn't remember this, I remember it because he was already Bob Dylan, ya' know. But anyway, he came over and said, "Jorma, nice to see you." Then he called me up on stage and we got to do "Highway 61" and a couple of other things. And what a great band he's got, Charlie Sexton, and what's the other guitar player...

RST - Larry Campbell

Jorma - Oh, wow...and Tony Garnier, and what's the drummer's name...

RST - Dave Kemper, used to be Garcia's drummer...

Jorma - ...just what a great band. I'm a big Bob Dylan fan and I've never heard him with a better live band. I think it's just great.

RST - He seems invigorated.

Jorma - Yeah, and he's playing all of these neat little things. "Wow, Bob's playing lead!" It's great.

RST - What do you think of the whole approach of segueing and improvising between songs, because you're more inclined to improvise within the songs, whereas with Phil you're often segueing from one into the other.

Jorma - Right, it certainly is something that I wouldn't do given my druthers. But one of the nice things about working with Phil is he's such a knowledgeable...and Phil has a lot of feeling.... but he's a knowledgeable, intellectual playing artist. And he has these overall concepts you know. And he looks at you and says, "play." "Play what?" "Whatever you wanna play!" "OK." And obviously sometimes it works better than other times, but I mean it's neat you know. And after a while my friends will say, "man you guys jammed for forty minutes on that song." And I'll say, "really it seemed like a second." (Laughter) Phil is great, I'm not just saying this because I'm hoping he's gonna hire me again. I just really had a great time playing with him. He's got all of these songs, and you've got to rehearse and we've got our charts and all this stuff...but you're right.... When the time comes to take off, he just opens the pen and let's you run.

RST - Are you jumping on in the spring or in the summer at all?

Jorma - He hasn't asked me, but he knows that I would.... Another thing I like about Phil also, I like the way he rotates his cast of characters. I think that's really cool. Because, he gets to do exactly what he wants to do, you just can't beat that. His bands always sound good whoever is playing with him. Of course I like it especially when I get to play with him, but you know....

RST - I've never heard a musician express higher praise for Jack Casady than Phil either. He has always put it well as to why Jack is a unique and special bass player. Could you talk some more about Jack?

Jorma - Well, Jack is perhaps my oldest friend. We've been pals since, oh gosh, I guess '57. Jack is really great, and Jack is one of these guys that has actually created something. There are a lot of guys that do a lot of different kinds of stuff with the bass these days. There are some great players out there. But Jack is definitely, when Jack plays you know you're hearing Jack. There's no question in your mind about it. When Jack and I play together, Jack listens so well to...of course we've played together a lot...but we just really read each other well. He's just a great non-traditional bass player. It's really funny though, because he knows how to do all the real traditional stuff, and sometimes it's really hysterical.... We'll be working on a tune or just jamming with an idea, and he'll be playing like a Motown part, and it will be like, "ah, that's really great, let's do that," but of course by the time we get to playing it's gone somewhere else completely. That's just how it is. The part never to be heard again you know, but, it's in there somewhere.

RST - Back to the Phil and Friends tour, what did you think of playing with Warren Haynes?

Jorma - I got to know Warren pretty good on that tour. Great guy. Another fabulous player, I love his music and all the different stuff that he does.

RST - He seems like a pretty down-to-earth guy.

Jorma - Absolutely, and he's played with everybody. He's got a huge track record of playing with lots and lots of really interesting people. It's amazing. Warren's been active for many years. Before he became Warren that we know he was always Warren doing something.

RST - You knocked some Dead Heads on their ass with your rendition of Dupree's Diamond Blues. People LOVED that. Were you familiar with that song before the performance?

Jorma - Actually I've been thinking about doing it myself with Tuna, I might ask if...the thing is I can't sing the chorus part, it's too high for me, that's why we had the girls sing it. What a great song! The answer is I'm really unfamiliar with that stuff, I mean I've known the guys for years. One of the things that is really, that knocked me on my belt when we started to learn these things. You hear a song like Dupree's Diamond Blues, it sounds like Keep On Truckin' or something like that, I mean it's in that family, but it's not, it's really different. I think it's fantastic, it sounds like you oughta know this stuff, but if you don't know it, you can't play it, because it's really different. There are little subtle timing things, and odd-ass little changes. I had a terrific time with that song. Then Pig Pen's thing...ah...

RST - Mr. Charlie?

Jorma - Yeah, Mr. Charlie's Blues. I think I'm actually gonna get off my butt and actually learn the words, 'cuz that's a great song. (Plays some of it on his guitar) Yeah, great song.

RST - It was interesting because the first fall show, at Barton Hall with Phil, you were kind of laying low, maybe because Derek and Warren had been on the tour for a while.

Jorma - Right.

RST - Then the other two (without Derek, the tour-ending New Hampshire and Amherst shows) you were more aggressive with your playing. Were you at the first show just to get the feel for what was going on with Phil's current unit?

Jorma - Yeah, pretty much. I didn't know where we were going with it. It was really nice to come in and have other guys to coast on. I hadn't played with Phil since the June thing. And I was just thrilled; of course we had all the charts written out, which helped remind me. I mean, St. Stephen is just not a lightly undertaken song, you know? I definitely was coasting on the boy's coattails a little bit to find out where we were going, then it was like, "OK, I can do this. I know where we are."

RST - Could you talk about the Fur Peace Ranch for people who may not know anything about it?

Jorma - My wife and I have this Fur Peace Ranch in Southeastern Ohio. Basically, it's a place to learn how to play stuff in an unintimidating fashion. I call it a guitar camp, because I'm a guitar player. But Pete teaches there, we've had drums, Jack is a regular with the bass. We have all kinds of people, Chris Smither, Rory Block, GE Smith...

RST - Arlo Guthrie, Alvin Youngblood Hart, Peter Mulvey, it's unbelievable!

Jorma - Yeah, the whole gang, yeah. Peter Rowan is coming, and Steve James, do you know Steve James?

RST - No, I don't.

Jorma - He's a finger style guitar player from Texas. You have GOT to turn yourself onto him; he is absolutely something else. Mary Flower, another great guitar player, dobro guitar player from Colorado - all of these people. We're open from the end of April to the end of October, with some other things here and there. ** Note - They now have limited winter sessions. ** Sessions are from Thursday night through Monday morning. We have two two-hour workshops and one one-hour workshop every day, so there's like five hours of workshops. We've got a great kitchen. People live on the premises... jamming... it's just a really neat thing, you know?

Next month's installment will travel back to San Francisco in the 1960's...