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Chris Kuroda Sheds Some Light

by Jeff Waful - waful@unclesammy.com

Editor's Note: As part of our new From The Archive feature, here's a second look at Jeff Waful's interview with Chris Kuroda, which originally appeared in our December 1998 issue. Look for Jeff's interview with Phish soundman Paul Languedoc in next month's JamBands.com.

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Phish’s lighting director, Chris Kuroda is regarded as one of the best in the business. A lot of fans consider him the "fifth member" of the band. He is responsible for providing the visual element to the concert experience. His light show enhances Phish’s music and at times can even influence it.

I sat down with Chris before the 11/28 show in Worcester to ask him some questions I’ve had on my mind lately. For those of you who have not yet read Dean Budnick’s in-depth interview with Kuroda from 1995, I highly recommend it as a prerequisite, as I made an effort not to repeat many of the same questions.

JW: By now, I think everyone is pretty familiar with the story of how you came to be Phish’s lighting director: March 1989, during ‘Mockingbird, (former lighting director) Chris Steck steps out to use the bathroom, you fill in, and the rest is history. But, you’re completely self-taught as far as lighting goes?

CK: I would say so. As I started getting into more intricate technology, just to keep up, I had to go, take courses at certain places; kind of crash-courses more than anything else. I had to learn how to program these consoles, learn how to fix some lights and just kind of get to know the beast that I was working with. That’s important.

JW: As far as the inspiration for the creativity, were you creative in other ways as a kid?

CK: I wasn’t really much of an artist. I sang. I was always in the school play in elementary school and stuff like that, but no not really. I guess I never really found that avenue in myself until I started doing this.

JW: I know you were taking guitar lessons with Trey and you had good rhythm, which ultimately led to you being such a good lighting designer.

CK: Yeah, I’d say as a person, I have pretty good rhythm and that helps me out a lot. I also really enjoy this kind of music. There’s a lot of funky time signatures and stuff like that, but I enjoy the challenge of trying to keep up with that.

JW: In the early days, was there a certain gig where it sort of clicked in your mind that you might be able to do this as a career?

CK: Well, by the time it was New Year’s ‘90-’91, I knew I was in for the long haul. I mean, when I saw Phish as a college kid, I knew then that they were gonna be who they are now. I thought they were better than just about anyone out there and they were just a bunch of college kids.

JW: Did they know it? I mean, did they have that same vision?

CK: I don’t think they knew it, no. They were just a college band who took a chance and they would often have meetings and discuss funds and say things like "should we do this? Should we take a trip to Colorado and spend all of our money on a whim?" They took some chances. I don’t think they really knew, no. But, obviously everything came together nicely.

JW: OK, so you started off and there’re what, three or four lights in the system?

CK: Yeah, there were about eight lights, four on each side: a couple blue ones, couple red ones, couple yellow ones…

JW: Can you talk about the transition from that rig to the more complex systems that you started to build over the years?

CK: Well, originally that was our light show and we were getting to a point where we knew we needed a bigger light show. The first major change came when we were playing at the Wetlands and the current light show we were using at the time was blowing up for reasons we didn’t know. We were blowing bulbs and we didn’t have any bulbs and we needed to make the show happen. So, Trey volunteered to go uptown in Manhattan and try to get some bulbs at this company. C-Factor was the name of the lighting company. When he came back, he had purchased a $13,000 light show from them. (laughs) Basically, when that tour ended, from Vermont I got in the truck, drove back down to New York City and picked up the new light show, which Trey had bought. It was basically just some trusses and more Par-cans, I mean, nothing major. But, he made that first decision that they needed more lights.

JW: What year was this?

CK: Between ’90 and ’91, probably late ’90.

JW: And Trey literally just spent thirteen grand?

CK: Yeah, he just went and bought it. (laughs) Yeah, I mean it was band money obviously, but he made the decision himself. That was the first major upgrade, but since then, it got to a point where I kept designing rigs with more and more Par-cans until it was just inevitable that we got into some automated lighting. I had checked out a few different (lighting companies), but there was this one, they were just up and coming at the time, the Altsars, which we use now. They were real small. They were just looking for a couple of clients. They didn’t want to be big. Blues Traveler was using them and we thought we’d be the perfect second client. The light was doing some really cool stuff that I wasn’t seeing in other lights, so we took a chance and got eighteen Altstars and cut down our Par-can count. That was our first moving-light tour, which was an absolute disaster on the technical production end because since it was a new prototype light, it was having software problems and we were just getting used to having moving lights and what we could do with them. I mean, I’m still finding new things to do with them, but at that time it was just so much to do and we had a very small cue file. The cue file’s been growing over the years, but when you’re just starting out writing cues and finding time to write cues…

JW: And that was ’93?

CK: ’93, yeah that’s correct.

JW: You introduced the new lights at set-break?

CK: Actually, the first gig we ever used them on was a festival gig that we played with Blues Traveler. So, it wasn’t the second set, it was just our set of that particular festival. However, one tour when we played outside, we wouldn’t fire them up until the second set, because it was summer tour and it was still light out. So we would just do Par-cans during dusk and then at night, we’d fire them up and have it be like a little something extra.

JW: When the band writes new material, do they sit down with you and say, "this is a new song, for this section right here I want some nice blue-violet lights…"?

CK: That’s happened from time to time. I’ve gotten advice. They specifically told me at one time, a bunch of years ago, how to light "Punch You In The Eye". They told me what colors go where…here…there… I still, to this day, kind of stick with that color scheme. There are a few other things. Any new music that has changes I will have to usually go to band practice and just kind of listen a few times and learn the changes.

JW: One of the most fascinating things that I’ve learned about your lighting is that you’re actually about a half-second ahead of the music.

CK: Yeah that’s right.

JW: I know all of the changes by heart and I thought I had a grasp on what you do. But then when I learned that you were ahead of the beat, I couldn’t believe it. I can’t comprehend how you do that. How do you keep the rhythm, actually being ahead of the beat?

CK: It’s really a matter of getting used to it, more than anything else. You get used to hitting that button a half-second early. So, I hit the button and I’m not really thinking about when I’m hitting the button. I’m thinking about when the light is gonna come on. I’ve just sort of trained myself to just be a little ahead. I mean, when I hit that button ahead of the music and the music doesn’t do what I’m hoping will happen, that button’s been hit already. The lights are gonna go on, you know what I mean? There’s no time to react and go "oops".

JW: Right. That’s another thing that occurred to me. A lot of times you’re guessing, like in that "Antelope" last night. (11-27-98). It was hard to tell when they were gonna go to the Marco Esquandolas section. Is that cued from Trey or is that just you guessing?

CK: I’d say there’s some guessing involved, but there is a look. Trey will look at Fish and give him a certain look, which says to me, "I hope so". (laughs) You know what I mean? Here’s an interesting thing: Trey will give Fish the look and Fish won’t see Trey give him the look and Trey will know that Fish didn’t see him. So, Trey will go around again, but I don’t see Fish not see Trey so I go to "Blue" on that and they’re still going and I go, "Oh, crap!" That’s happened now and again.

JW: Did you get lost in that chaotic "Weekapaug" last night. Was the band lost?

CK: I wouldn’t say anybody was lost, no. Years ago, I used to get lost, but now I’ve learned to just sort of go with the flow more than anything else.

JW: Back to the half-second delay. I’m really puzzled by this. On a technical level, is that because the light is travelling faster than the sound in the big arenas?

CK: No, it’s because it takes that much time between the time you hit the button for the data to travel from my light console, to the dimmer rack, to whatever system it’s talking to, for that instrument to react and for the bulb to come on. If I hit it right on the beat, the lights are gonna be late every time because it takes time for the signal to go through.

JW: Really. So even with all of the technology, there’s no way for it to be instantaneous?

CK: No.

JW: Do you have a preference for indoor or outdoor venues?

CK: I prefer indoor venues specifically.

JW: Yeah, I would assume so. I know you have that new effect where you light the crowd behind the stage in a different color than the band.

CK: Yeah, we started doing that last tour because we’re playing in 360 and I wanted to try to bring the people behind the stage feeling like they’re more of a part of what’s going on. Most of my lighting design hasn’t gone back there really. I mean, ultimately I would like to design 360 degree "looks", but that’s difficult with all the P.A. and stuff that we have hanging up there. So, I just wanted to get the crowd more involved and I also thought it looked wicked.

JW: I’ve talked to a lot of fans and I don’t think that people, even those that are knowledgeable about Phish, are really sure how you actually call the light show. Can you explain the actual communication process between you and your assistants?

CK: Well, I’m talking to Roger (Pujol) on one side and "Rocko" (Radkovich) on the other side and Roger’s running the Altstar system and Rocko is running all the high-end equipment. There are studio colors and studio spots. Those are the two kinds of lights. I’m basically calling numbers to them, numbers or names of different looks and they’re setting up based on a "stand-by and go" type of verbal system. So, I’ll set them up in a look and tell them to stand by and when I say "go", they both hit their buttons. I say, for example, "Rocko, set up 201, Roger set up 700. Stand by." They set up… they’re waiting… and right when I think I want to execute those cues, I say "go" and they go and they push their buttons.

JW: So, they’re actually having to execute the half-second delay too.

CK: Oh yeah. Well, they push the button when I say "go". They’re not thinking half-second. I’m thinking half-second. They’re just thinking "go".

JW: So every section of every song is categorized by number?

CK: Oh, it doesn’t work like that at all. We have just hundreds of cues in this system and hundreds of cues in that system, and I just ask for them.

JW: You memorized them all?

CK: Yeah, it’s always different. Nothing’s set. Just whenever I want that one, I’ll ask for it….

JW: But, you’ve had to actually memorize every number and you know in your head what it’s gonna look like?

CK: Well, I designed them all and I numbered them all myself so…

JW: That’s pretty incredible.

CK: I just know it through that more than anything else.

JW: In certain songs, like say "2001", is there a certain file that is assigned to that specifically?

CK: Well there are certain songs, the "You Enjoy Myself" vocal jam, the "2001", that would just be impossible to call. So, I leave my console and go over and run their consoles for certain things.

JW: That was my next question. I noticed that in Albany (11-25-98), during "2001", I looked over and you were all of a sudden at one of the other consoles.

CK: Yeah, sometimes I feel the need to do that.

JW: "You Enjoy Myself", I’m glad you brought that up. It seems that the band is actually following you at times during the vocal jam.

CK: Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If they’re in the mood to follow me, they’ll follow me and if they’re not in the mood to follow me, I’ll figure it out pretty quick and just try to follow them more. But, every time a vocal jam starts, I’m planning to follow them. I’m never planning to take charge in any way. That just sort of usually happens based on the vibe of what’s going on more than anything else.

JW: Yeah, I was watching the show the other night and in anticipation of this interview, I was trying to concentrate on the lights as much as possible. It occurred to me that there are those four amazing musicians on stage creating sound for 20,000 people, but really your mind is the only one mind that’s in control of the visual aspect. Do you ever think about that? I mean, you have a lot of control over people’s moods.

CK: Yeah, there’s a certain amount of emotional control, but I don’t really like to think of it like that. I’m really just trying to enhance the feeling that the music is giving off with the proper color. I’m not really trying to force a blue on it when it (isn’t appropriate). In my opinion, when things are really moving fast and jamming hard, proper lighting for that is your deep saturated hot colors. So I’m not going to try to force blues and greens on a big, huge rock and roll moment, cause I feel it’s inappropriate. I’m just trying to choose the correct looks to go with what’s going on musically, first. Although, there is a lot of crowd reaction.

JW: I read in the interview with Dean Budnick in 1995, that some of your favorite songs to light are the ones with odd time signatures: Guyute, David Bowie, Reba. Since then, the band’s writing style has become less complex while the lighting system has gotten more complex. Do you miss the old style? A lot of the funk jams don’t give you as much to do.

CK: Well, I do miss certain things, but I like the fact that the band is striving to go in new directions, whether it’s mellower or not. I like the fact that I’ve had to change my style because they’ve changed their style. I’ve done things recently, within the last couple of years. I’ve written lighting cues and instead of being five second lighting cues, they’re thirty-five second cues. I’m experimenting a lot more with adding more time to things. So, it takes thirty-five seconds for something to develop, instead of five seconds. I really enjoy that kind of thing, trying new things out. It’s funny, cause you try new things out and you discover a whole new world that you didn’t even know was there and go "wow, I can do this. That looks really cool. I never knew that would look cool before. I like when it moves reeeeeeally slow and it has a certain soothing vibe to it". But yes, at the same time I miss….I wish I could have it all.

JW: Can you talk a little bit about "2001"? I mean, that’s sort of been stretched out in recent years. Did the band sit down with you and say, "Chris, you’re doing some amazing stuff. We’re gonna stretch that out for twenty minutes and give you your own little solo"?

CK: No, that would have been nice, but really it has nothing to do with that. They’re just really getting into playing those funk grooves. "2001" is a perfect place to have a good, long funk groove and jam out on it. It’s a music thing.

JW: I think one of the band’s greatest non-musical strengths is its communication with the fan-base. It’s seems like they always know what their fans are thinking. But, this whole glow stick issue, people are very divided on. People don’t really know if the band likes it or not.

CK: I think that the glow-rings, the kind that fit together in the little plastic insert, they’re great. They look great flying around up there. They’re not gonna hurt a fly. The thick, plastic glow sticks are hurting lots of people in the crowd with serious injuries requiring stitches. Some friends of mine, as a matter of fact (have been injured). There is no need to throw those. I mean, it looks great and it looks cool and you’re at a concert, and it’s the heat of the moment. I can understand why people do it, but….. I don’t like the glow sticks. Every time it starts, the first thing I tell my two guys is, "everybody, watch your head, duck." We’re all looking out. Some people really just whip them. I really have no tolerance for that. You’re gonna really hurt someone. That’s not the heat of the concert-moment getting to you. That’s just a jerk whipping a glow stick.

JW: I completely agree. The first time it happened, at the Great Went, it was just amazing. It was spontaneous. It was beautiful. People were lofting them…

CK: That looked great, but you learn as time goes on. We thought the glow stick thing was gonna be the greatest thing in the world until we realized people were getting hurt.

JW: Can you elaborate a little? I mean, do you hear the band talking about it? I know Trey, that first night said, "go get more of those, they look amazing". Is there any discussion backstage?

CK: Since then, I would say that they’re a little down on them. I think they feel the exact same way I do. Get thousands and millions of those little ringed ones. They’re thin. They couldn’t hurt a fly. Throw them around. They’ll look amazing. They really will. But I think everyone’s against the thick, plastic ones.

JW: Agreed. So, which of the new material do you really dig?

CK: I dig it all, most of it. I mean, there’s a couple things that just aren’t for me, but I’ve learned to like them. I’ve always liked Phish’s upbeat music, so I really like "Birds of a Feather" and I like "Ghost" and I like "Frankie Says", just because I think it’s a really pretty song. I really do like most of it, I’d have to say.

JW: "Dark Side of the Moon" in Utah…

CK: The most amazing thing about that is, from the time they put the disc in and began learning it to the time they played it, was about two and a half hours.

JW: That’s what I was gonna ask you. They didn’t learn it back in ’94, when they teased it?

CK: No, it was just kind of a "you snooze, you lose" joke. We started out joking about breaking out old tunes and by the time the joke ended, it had escalated to playing "Dark Side of the Moon".

JW: And they just decided at dinner that night?

CK: Yeah, and they went and put the CD in and sat in the practice room for an hour and came out and played the first set. Then they went back into the practice room at the break. I don’t even think they had the album. I think they just gave it a whole run-through, beginning to end, in the practice room, and went out on stage and played it.

JW: So they told you about two hours ahead of time that they were going to do it?

CK: Something like that.

JW: And did you go get the CD or were you familiar enough with the album?

CK: No, I didn’t. I know the album, I mean just (from listening to it) as a kid. I spent a little time trying to think about what I was going to do, but really I just winged it, just like any other show. We just wing it every night anyway.

JW: You must have had a field day. I mean, everyone missed the show. There were what, 4,500 people there….

CK: 4,600.

JW: 4,600. So can you tell us about the light show. Were you doing a lot of fog and a lot of strobes?

CK: I did. I really cranked the fog during "Great Gig in the Sky". There wasn’t too much strobing. There were a lot of big, huge lighting effects, big huge, giant picture looks in the house, kind of like what it’s been looking like lately, just kind of following the flow, nothing special really.

JW: A lot of people would just die to have your job. How often are you just sitting back there thinking, "wow, I am so lucky"? I know you work tremendously hard. What’s the balance like there?

CK: I consider myself lucky, but I’ve been doing this for a long time and it’s now my life more than anything else. I mean, of course everyday I do think I’m lucky, but it’s gotten beyond that. It’s hard to describe, but there’s more of a personal satisfaction of the work I’m doing out here, more than just being a lucky guy getting to cruise around lighting Phish. I mean, that’s’ great. Don’t get me wrong, but there’s a lot more to it than that, as far as my life goes.

JW: With digital technology advancing at such a rapid rate, can you speculate on the future of lighting?

CK: There are a couple of lighting companies that are doing extremely radical prototype designs on new lights involving computer screens inside the light and stuff like that. I mean, the future is gonna be insane. And, the technology in the lighting industry is advancing so fast. I mean, it’s faster than a lot of other industries. Companies are just battling it out, trying to come up with the best products. It’s gonna be crazy. It really is. But, a lot of that is geared a lot more towards projection more than just light purists. So, we’ll see how that sort of stuff integrates with us cause we’re not big on projection. I mean, we do a few things, but nothing that major.

JW: You’re in this for the long haul, no other plans?

CK: As far as I can see, right now, sure. I mean, who knows what tomorrow will bring.

JW: Have you made any travel arrangements for New Year’s 2000 yet?

CK: I have not made any…well, no. All the planes are gonna crash, …..(laughs)

JW: So it’s still up in the air? I know they haven’t announced anything yet. Do you know of any plans?

CK: I know of some, I know there are a few options.

JW: There’re rumors flying all over the place…

CK: They’re really working on what they want to do.

JW: Do you plan on bringing out some special stuff for that show?

CK: Sure, of course I do. I hope to anyway.

JW: Great. See ya there….

For the ultimate Chris Kuroda fan site, make sure to check out http://members.home.net/ck5 .

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Jeff Waful is currently managing a band called Uncle Sammy.