The  Zen  Tricksters  gained  notoriety  for  their  versions  of Grateful  Dead tunes. Due to their approach--playing the  material in  a  style similar to the early `70s era Dead--they've enjoyed  the  warm embrace of the Deadhead community. However, while the New York-based foursome still pull out a  number  from the legendary San Francisco act's catalogue whenever the mood  strikes now that's just one element in a lengthy setlist that can  include covers by Bob Dylan, the Band, and the Allman Brothers Band.

More  importantly,  the  Tricksters embodied the  spirit  of  the Dead's material and incorporated it as a beacon for their songwriting. One can hear the creative growth on the Tricksters two albums,  1997's ``The  Holy Fool,'' and last year's ``A Love Surreal.''  Both  display that the bandmembers can shine while performing nothing but their  own compositions.

JOHN PATRICK GATTA:  Zen Tricksters have two  albums  worth  of material  now. I'm curious if you are trying to do less Dead  material and be known less as a Grateful Dead cover band?

KLYPH BLACK:  We  are trying to definitely do more of our own  stuff.  It's been a gradual progression of breaking in our new stuff and constantly writing,  bringing more tunes to the public of what we do. It's  kind of a double-edged sword. It's a tough thing to do. The  thing is that we really love playing those tunes too. What  happens  is  the crowds that are getting to know  us...where  we're more popular  things  are actually getting to the point  where  people  are actually  requesting our songs. That way we have a strong hold  there. We're  able to play our own material and we'll still do Grateful  Dead tunes.  We don't just do Grateful Dead. We do the Dead, we  do  Dylan, the  Band, the Allmans, our own blues tunes, blues tunes that none  of those  bands did, folk tunes, whatever we decide. It's not  like  it's always just a tribute to the Dead and we do all Grateful Dead.

JPG: Maybe it seems this way because I live in Ohio, but it seems like the  Zen Tricksters profile, at least some period after  "Holy  Fool," has been low for awhile. Is it just me or were you doing other things?

BLACK:  We're  trying to get into the Midwest more  often.  The  way things  were  going, we seemed to be coast jumping. We didn't  get  a chance  to find a logistical way to make it work. Because  the  shows would  just came up that way, So, we would get out to the  west  coast and do a tour and we'd come back to the east coast and start doing the east  coast. Then we're like, "We got to get into the Midwest. So,  we did a handful of gigs, but we never really mined it that well.  We've done  some  shows in Detroit, Ann Arbor, East Lansing,  Kalamazoo  and then  we played Cleveland a couple of times, but we never  really  hit the Ohio market that much. I think it would be a good thing for us to do. It seems like there's definitely a place for us there.

JPG: With the release of the new album, is it your intent to hit  new areas a little more?

BLACK:  Yeah,  what we want to try to get into the  markets  that  we started  to get. You have to keep coming back because that's the  only way it works. If you don't get out there often enough, then you're not really  building anything because people don't get a chance to  really hear anything.

JPG: At the same time it sounds like the Zen Tricksters are different. You  don't sound like the type of band who jump in the bus and  crisscross the country for over half the year; that you're a  little  more specific in what you do.

BLACK:  Originally  we did that. We just kept playing  everywhere  and then as we checked out what was going on, we'd say, "Well, this market seems  to  be doing pretty well for us..." Also  by  changing  booking agents too, 'cause the first booking agent that we had was  definitely hitting  us  more  down the southeast and the  southwest  from  South Carolina  to  Missisippi, a little bit of Florida, but not  very  much else. When we changed, the booking agent that we got was concentrating  more on  the  west coast. We were basically doing the east  and  the  west coast. We told him, "Look. We've got to try to get some midwest stuff happening."   Actually what really happened is the summertime  is  the west  coast because we do the festival thing, the High Sierra and  the Oregon  County  Fair, and then we manage also to get  into  Vancouver, British  Columbia. They seemed to really enjoy us and they just  kept booking us. So we were like, well we'll just keep going out west.

JPG:  Well  the  date you're playing near me at  Nelson  Ledges with Ekoostik  Hookah,  how did that come about? They  definitely  have  a strong following in the Ohio area, and it seems to be branching out...

BLACK: Right. Well Ekoostik Hookah and us have done some gigs together before.  We played in Atlanta. We played here in New  York  together. So what happened was, we also happen to share the same booking agent.

JPG: Nimrod Productions, right?

BLACK: Right. What happened with that, was again, another kind of  one hand shaking the other, 'cause they wanted to get into New York so  we opened  up the door for that. And they're going to try to open up  the door for us in Ohio.

JPG:  I  always think that's good when bands do that. It's  silly  for bands not to do that.

BLACK:  I think that, especially, with the kind of music that  we  do, that  whole  genre of stuff, I think that those bands, if  they  stick together,  they  can actually be more successful all around by  not  so much  sharing  a  bill, which is good too, but  even  doing  festivals together, trying make a camaraderie thing with the bands.

JPG:  That brings up this aspect then, is the whole terminology  thing to  encompass  all  these bands from yourself to  Ekoostik  Hookah  to whoever else you want to mention, the jam band genre. Are you comfortable with that term?

BLACK: Oh yeah.

JPG:  Really?  I think you're probably the first person I  found  that seemed to be comfortable...

BLACK: Well, nobody wants to label themselves, but I'd much rather  be called  a jam band than a Grateful Dead tribute band. That's  one  of the  things that we were listed in that book of jam bands  and  that's fine and  that's because...I mean, I don't know how  else  you  would really  categorize...a  jam band doesn't  necessarily  categorize  the music in a way because all the bands that are in that book  are  all, they all jam, but they're all different.

Everybody's  got a thing that they have, like if you look  at  Ekoostik Hookah, to me, I don't want to have to categorize something, but to me they have much more of a southern rock feel than we do. Seems to  me, if people were going to say, "Oh, the Zen Tricksters, they sound  like the  Grateful  Dead." To me the Ekoostik Hookah guys  sound  like  the Allman  Brothers.  It's not that they're copying or  tributing,  it's just, there is definitely the influence, especially to me,  especially the  guitar player in Ekoostik Hookah. He definitely has  that  Duane and Dickey thing. I think he's great.

JPG: Let's jump to the album. First off, the title, "A Love  Surreal," I'd imagine it's a tip of the hat to John Coltrane's "A Love Supreme."

BLACK:  Of course. That was Jeff [Matson] coming up with that.  That's pretty good. There's not too many people that catch that.

JPG: Really?

BLACK:  It's  funny. You think they would. I guess if you're  hip  to jazz,  you're  going  to  know that. If  you're  not  really  a  jazz fan...well  some people say, "Oh! A love supreme!' Other  people  are like "Ah, that's a cool name."

JPG:  It  kind of works in both ways--A love supreme, a  love  surreal actually is a cool name. As for the music, the writers on there, I see some of the bandmembers' names but for example "Where You Want to Be," I don't recognize either one of those names.

BLACK: Right. Well, Dave Diamond, was the drummer in the band  before Joe  Chirco. Dave was the drummer on "The Holy Fool." He  wrote  "Lay Your Love." We were doing "Where You Want to Be" at the time that  he left the band. So we asked him if we could put it on the record?

JPG: So, it's been sitting around?

BLACK: Well, he actually does it in his own band. They were  thinking about recording it too. So it might end up on two cds, which is totally cool. Dave Diamond actually is a really, really talented musician. He  plays guitar and bass , drums, keys. He's great. And he sings his ass off.

JPG: There are several songs on the album where you go off,  exploring musically in a way that's usually reserved during a concert. I'm curious,  because you have so many bands that don't want to go off in  the studio, that they want to keep it kind of simple to show that they can write tightly-constructed songs.

BLACK:  That's an interesting point because, originally, we were  siting  around talking about what are we going to do for this  next  record?  We didn't want to give up too much of that because it is  what the band does.

Also,  the  way the songs were structured so that you could  play  the tune and fade out before the jam starts, which could work. Some people even suggested putting an edited version on the cd. Having the  radio edit and the long version. We didn't. It was a tough decision because we know that people want to hear that from us because it's what we do. The  thing  is there's a lot of jamming on it. A lot  more  than  the first cd.

JPG: You could have made each song 11 minutes but then you only  would have been able to have maybe six songs rather than ten.

BLACK:  Some of the tunes were definitely geared toward that,  whereas other  tunes like "Down the Road," it's a blues tune so it  gets  the solo in there. It gets to the point and it's done.

JPG:  What  about the aims in general with the album, because  if  you listen  to the album really really closely, you might be able to  say, `Oh  that sounds a bit like they might have listened to the  Grateful Dead.'   Listening to the record, you wouldn't think that these  guys got  there start as a band doing Grateful Dead material.  When  you're playing  live, do you make the switch from doing your stuff  to  their stuff  more  distinct?

BLACK:  That's great that you say that (slight laugh) because I  feel that  the band really does have it's own voice. The thing that's  the tip of the hat to The Dead, to me, is the jamming part of it and  also that  Jeff, lyrically, tries, not so much emulate Robert  Hunter,  but his type of lyrical stuff definitely is in the genre of that. What  we  do live, when we do it, we'll interweave  all  those  songs. We'll  interweave a Grateful Dead tune that's a jamming tune  and  in the middle  of that tune, break into something of our own  and  then, depending  on where the jam goes from ours, it could go back into  the same  Dead tune or could go into another one of ours or a Dylan  tune. It could go anywhere.

JPG: In general did you have any particular aims with this album?

BLACK:  What was happening there, we had "The Holy Fool" out, we  were touring  around...we were always coming up with new songs to play  and it really just came to the point where we really needed to get another record out. We needed people to know there were more Zen  Tricksters tunes.  It  was  just a natural progression to get  this  record  out. Also, having a new drummer in the band, it's nice to introduce him as a player, even nicer to introduce him as, `This is the band now.'

JPG: Even though Joe is the new guy in the band, he's been around  for three years. Everyone else has been together for about 10, right?

BLACK: Rob's been in the band for 10 years. I've been in the band for five and Jeff's been the rock steady guy, forever. (laughs)

JPG: I was going to say what do you think keeps things interesting for you? Keeps you together?

BLACK:  The  love of the music really does it and I  think  everybody really just feels that this is what they want to do. Like I said, Jeff is the mainstay. It was his band all along. Just  from  knowing, and  being  in other bands myself, what it's like  to  have  something together  and  either know that this is it or going through  a  period where you're  playing with a bassplayer, `Well, this  guy  is  really good, but I don't know if he's really *the guy*.'

I  think that what happened to us, that's how the band kinda  got  together  `cause Rob, when he joined, him and Jeff obviously were  like, `This is great, we obviously play well together.' They saw the  whole progression of the band. Then, when I joined, it was the same thing. When  I joined, there was no drummer. They were going through  trying to  find one. Then we went through a series of drummers.  Then  Dave Diamond joined  the group. It was like, "Wow! This is  great!"  Then Dave  decided  to  pursue his own thing. Dave was in  the  process  of leaving  the band and we had a gig that he couldn't do, so  he  recommended Joe.

Actually it was funny because Jeff and Rob had heard about Joe before. but he had never played with them and they had never seen him. We  got together one day, just to go over some stuff and ask him what tunes he knew. He played with a kick drum, a snare drum and a high hat just  to go  over the tunes. We picked him up and we went to the gig.  We  did the gig and it was like, `Wow, this is unbelievable!' It was like  he was always in the band.

JPG: Obviously, it's great when those things happen.

BLACK:  Yeah, that was the most beautiful thing. Then from  there  it just got better and better and better...

JPG: How many dates do you play a year?

BLACK: Over 200.

JPG: Oh really? That's a heck of a lot for skipping much of the  midwest.

BLACK:  I know. I know. We've been to Michigan a couple of times.  We always  seem  to  get there and we always try to also  be  there  when school's in session. But  we  haven't  really mined that area too much. In  Detroit  we  do really  well.  We have a good following there. Ann  Arbor's  good  and Lansing,  Kalamazoo...In Ohio, we've really only played  in  Cleveland and Nelson Ledges.

JPG: Okay, you're branching out little-by-little. Last thing, I recall meeting  you after your performance at Wilbert's in Cleveland, and  we were  talking  about  some very small club on Long  Island,  the  Band played there and...

BLACK: Oh, Steven's Talkhouse in Amagasset. My family owns it. I  was the guy that first put live music into the club. The  place  at that point only held 75 people. What happened was, it just mushroomed. All of sudden all these booking agencies started calling saying,  `How would  you like these guys in there?' Eventually, we had  to  upgrade the  place. They upgraded and upgraded to the point...what  they  did, they  didn't make the bar any bigger, they made the stage  bigger,  so that the bands...

As  a matter of fact, there are some pretty funny stories. One of  the first  bands, that came in there as a quote unquote big band  was  Los Lobos.  The club is set up kind of funny and when you load  up,  your gear  is right on to the stage. At this point, the club only  held  75 people,  very  small PA system. But Los Lobos wanted to  do  the  gig. Their  road manager came into the club and walked through  the  stage door  and  he's standing, looking at the club, and says to me,  I  was working  sound at the time, `Where's the stage?' And I  said,  `You're standing  on it.' He was like, `What?' He couldn't believe it.  When the band got there, there were like, This is great.'